Forum | Thinking With Portals

#31 · May 14, 2011, 4:27 pm

Quote from Adair on May 14, 2011, 4:27 pm
Awesome map, I agree it's either the best so far or right up there with it.

But I have to weigh in on the "crouch jumping" discussion. I actually thought that it doesn't exist in Portal 2.

Warning, I'm about to try to dissect crouch jumping in Portal 2, it's a little off topic:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but:
A) If you hold crouch and press jump, nothing happens.
and:
B) If you begin to hold crouch in midair you will not pull your legs up into your chest and you will land in a standing position, but will quickly drop into crouch.

In the middle of typing this I did some testing. I'm not quite sure about the results, but I think there's a few methods to achieve something like a crouch jump.

1) If you start up on a high ledge and hold crouch while moving off the edge then Chell will remain crouched until you stop holding the crouch button, even while falling. You can crouch at the very last second before falling to achieve this without losing much time/momentum. This works really well for the last few crouch-necessary jumps in Stylus01.

2) Again start up on a ledge standing and run toward the edge. If you get the distances right you can jump before you reach the edge, hold crouch in midair, and then the objective is to touch the very tip of the ledge before falling over the edge. This makes Chell pull her legs up in a crouch when you hit the tip and gets you a little more momentum than method 1. This method is half theoretical because I think I've done it kinda by accident, but I'm not very good at recreating it when I want to due to the precise nature of judging the jump distance.

3) A good place to try this method is the very first fling on Stylus01. You need to set up the portals in the obvious places and then go through the pair of them twice to get the required momentum to reach the ledge, but you need to be crouched when you get there. In testing I noticed that the only way I could do it was to hold crouch between the two pairs; to clarify: I would first run toward the ground portal, come out of the wall portal and begin falling back toward the ground portal, at this time I'd start to hold crouch, fall through the portals the second time with momentum, and make it onto the ledge still crouching.

If I tried holding crouch before going into the ground portal the first time I wouldn't have the momentum to get back to the ground portal the second time so that's an obvious failure. If I waited until I was through both portals the second time and was flying toward the ledge then Chell would not get in the crouch position at all, and her legs would bump off the wall just below the ledge and she would fall down.

So why does it work when holding crouch while falling back into the ground portal? I believe that when you go through the pair of portals that second time while holding crouch it is the same as Chell touching the ground for a split second. It's not enough ground to actually slow her momentum, but its enough to make her crouch as if she's standing on the ground. Then you proceed through the air still crouched just like you would if you would remain crouched when you fall from a ledge like in method 1. Other theories/proof are welcome.

So the point is: Yes you can fly through the air crouching in Portal 2 maps, but you have to get there in some odd and unintuitive ways and I don't think it can really be called "crouch jumping" anymore.

Sorry about the run-on sentences, did the best I could.

Awesome map, I agree it's either the best so far or right up there with it.

But I have to weigh in on the "crouch jumping" discussion. I actually thought that it doesn't exist in Portal 2.

Warning, I'm about to try to dissect crouch jumping in Portal 2, it's a little off topic:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but:
A) If you hold crouch and press jump, nothing happens.
and:
B) If you begin to hold crouch in midair you will not pull your legs up into your chest and you will land in a standing position, but will quickly drop into crouch.

In the middle of typing this I did some testing. I'm not quite sure about the results, but I think there's a few methods to achieve something like a crouch jump.

1) If you start up on a high ledge and hold crouch while moving off the edge then Chell will remain crouched until you stop holding the crouch button, even while falling. You can crouch at the very last second before falling to achieve this without losing much time/momentum. This works really well for the last few crouch-necessary jumps in Stylus01.

2) Again start up on a ledge standing and run toward the edge. If you get the distances right you can jump before you reach the edge, hold crouch in midair, and then the objective is to touch the very tip of the ledge before falling over the edge. This makes Chell pull her legs up in a crouch when you hit the tip and gets you a little more momentum than method 1. This method is half theoretical because I think I've done it kinda by accident, but I'm not very good at recreating it when I want to due to the precise nature of judging the jump distance.

3) A good place to try this method is the very first fling on Stylus01. You need to set up the portals in the obvious places and then go through the pair of them twice to get the required momentum to reach the ledge, but you need to be crouched when you get there. In testing I noticed that the only way I could do it was to hold crouch between the two pairs; to clarify: I would first run toward the ground portal, come out of the wall portal and begin falling back toward the ground portal, at this time I'd start to hold crouch, fall through the portals the second time with momentum, and make it onto the ledge still crouching.

If I tried holding crouch before going into the ground portal the first time I wouldn't have the momentum to get back to the ground portal the second time so that's an obvious failure. If I waited until I was through both portals the second time and was flying toward the ledge then Chell would not get in the crouch position at all, and her legs would bump off the wall just below the ledge and she would fall down.

So why does it work when holding crouch while falling back into the ground portal? I believe that when you go through the pair of portals that second time while holding crouch it is the same as Chell touching the ground for a split second. It's not enough ground to actually slow her momentum, but its enough to make her crouch as if she's standing on the ground. Then you proceed through the air still crouched just like you would if you would remain crouched when you fall from a ledge like in method 1. Other theories/proof are welcome.

So the point is: Yes you can fly through the air crouching in Portal 2 maps, but you have to get there in some odd and unintuitive ways and I don't think it can really be called "crouch jumping" anymore.

Sorry about the run-on sentences, did the best I could.

#32 · May 14, 2011, 5:16 pm

Good puzzles! Never boring. Also informative, I thought crouch jumping was disabled in P2.

the hills are alive... with the sound of music

#33 · May 14, 2011, 11:07 pm

It was good but it needs more of avisual appeal. Also, you missed some indicator lights.

It wasn't particularly difficult, it wasn't particularly great either. I'd say better than average...

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#34 · May 15, 2011, 6:54 am

Adair i agree with you..if i make it short. "crouch jumping" works if you do it at the right moment.

Motanum wrote:

It was good but it needs more of avisual appeal. Also, you missed some indicator lights.
It wasn't particularly difficult, it wasn't particularly great either. I'd say better than average...

Thanks for posting this. probably the most honest response i've got. Really appreciate it!!!

#35 · May 15, 2011, 7:19 pm

My biggest problem was with the crouching. This technique is never required in Portal 2 and for players who didn't play any of the hardcore Portal 1 maps probably don't "get" why they have to do it. I would really suggest removing that entirely.

I agree with Motanum, some areas were really bland visually. In the actual puzzle rooms it wasn't as bad, but in the interconnecting hallways it was noticeable. I really disliked the

Spoiler

drop floor "trap", if only because I didn't even really know what was going on in that room before all of the sudden I'm falling into the next one and being told a really bad joke about something being a lie

. If you were trying to transition from one area to the next, you should look into building an elevator room.

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#36 · May 19, 2011, 11:59 am

Quote from InertiaticESP on May 19, 2011, 11:59 am
I'm mid playthrough, I'll edit this post with my full review once I'm done, but I just wanna ask, [spoiler]Was I supposed to be able to knock down every turret in the first room?[/spoiler] I would think so, but something about the level design makes me think that the turrets were meant to be an ever-present obstacle in the first room.

EDIT: I probably could have solved the puzzle without [spoiler]taking out the turrets[/spoiler] using some clever thinking. Maybe make a challenge version of the map where you have to do the whole first room under fire . Wait... no.

So far the only problem I've come across is I accidentally got blue paint on my cube, which bounced it off the button, sealing away the door that led to the only water in the level. I chased it around for a few minutes, caught it, sent it through the vaporizer in hopes that a new one would appear, but alas.

In Portal 1, almost all of the doors that separate rooms have an emancipation grid on it, however the same doesn't hold true for P2 custom maps. I personally had a lot of trouble realizing that [spoiler]I could bring the cube from the first room into the second via a portal. I thought I needed to go through the left emancipation grid (the higher one) to get another cube or something. I'm not sure if that's good puzzle design or not. On one hand, it made me think there were more possibilities in the first room and had me stumped for a while, but on the other hand, there's something kinda lame about having a useless grid up there. As far as I know, you can't go into it, and there's nothing in there essential to completing the level. It just seems like a cheap way to make the test more confusing, players tend to anticipate that all of the elements in the map will be used[/spoiler] I've heard of designers making more of the walls portal-friendly than necessary so that it's less obvious where to place portals (though when you have gel in a level this doesn't always work), but the grid seems a little much.

The third room all I can tell is it's a little tricky to see that the button on the left [spoiler]pulls down the emancipation grid as well as reversing the funnel direction[/spoiler], but I see you put glass there so I'm guessing you realized this and did the best you can. That's really nitpicking however, the real issues with this room are detailed below.

In the third/final room, it's not really clear whether it's the button (on the right) that's letting you into the door, or if the door just opens when you approach it. The doorway itself is probably small enough that even if there was no door and just an opening, you'd need to be standing at least where the button currently is, if not closer, so it wouldn't really change any elements about the actual puzzle if you just replaced the button door with an opening. Especially considering the fact that at the start of the puzzle, when you solve the first room and get to the room with two gels, the door doesn't open up to let you back in unless the button is pressed.

Finally, that [spoiler]crouch-launching with the turrets[/spoiler] at the end was just bad design. Valve never mandates crouch jumping into their maps for good reason. Portal is a puzzle game with action elements. The action derives mostly from reflexes and setting up chain reactions with quick thinking. Not by hitting the ctrl key at the perfect time.

I'm not telling you how "portal is meant to be played", and I doubt I could do any better designing a map, but just look at it from the players view:

"I know what to do, I know how to do it, yet it's really hard." Knowing what to do but not being able to do it is really frustrating in a game like Portal.

Very frustrating. I personally noclipped after failing 10 times. I get that you want to prevent the player from launching themselves and taking out the turret [spoiler]thus removing the excursion funnel puzzle[/spoiler], but there has to be a better way than those shitty crouchjumps.

Make no mistake, your map is still an easy 5/5, maybe 6/5. I'm just saying if you took care of these issues and made the maps flawless, you have a good shot of being included in one of the (hopefully) inevitable FREE PS3/360 DLC packs that Valve is going to release so console gamers can play maps made by the community. Not that most modders/mappers care about the console generation, but it would be pretty cool to have a map in a map pack on consoles.

I'm looking forward to all your maps, the only ones that really come close so far are the lob_sphere_of_roundness and lob_old_faithful, and those are aesthetically completely different chambers. I personally think more people should learn from your designs. For example, [spoiler], in the second room where you're doing the speedpaint/bouncepaint combo through a Portal, even if you just didn't have the height, it was easy to just run back and try again. Remember consoles don't have quicksave, you should make all your maps with consoles in mind. . However, had you removed the required crouchjump, that wouldn't have even been an issue.[/spoiler]

Why am I bringing up all this console optimization Free DLC pack stuff? Because Valve hires from the modding community. Every modder and their dog should be cleaning up their maps for an official release from Valve... you never know where it'll take you.

Really really good work. Make more, and if you ever need a playtester, I think I'm pretty good at giving... comprehensive feedback (looks at shrinking scrollbar)... VERY comprehensive feedback, as you can see .

It's maps like this that make me wanna bust out hammer again...

TL;DR Play this map.

EDIT: I actually liked the trapdoor drop into the final area of the testchamber. There's no reason to separate that with an elevator. I would have had something like Stylus show up instead of the potato text, but that's just me being a whore. I would plaster my name all over this shit.

You could use that trapdoor technique to make a endlessly looping test. Might be funny to see how many times people solved it before realizing. It could be like the Badger video the first time you saw it (or Magical Trevor or Kenya...) "Is it looping?"

I'm mid playthrough, I'll edit this post with my full review once I'm done, but I just wanna ask,

Spoiler

Was I supposed to be able to knock down every turret in the first room?

I would think so, but something about the level design makes me think that the turrets were meant to be an ever-present obstacle in the first room.

EDIT: I probably could have solved the puzzle without

Spoiler

taking out the turrets

using some clever thinking. Maybe make a challenge version of the map where you have to do the whole first room under fire :twisted:

. Wait... no. :wink:

So far the only problem I've come across is I accidentally got blue paint on my cube, which bounced it off the button, sealing away the door that led to the only water in the level. I chased it around for a few minutes, caught it, sent it through the vaporizer in hopes that a new one would appear, but alas.

In Portal 1, almost all of the doors that separate rooms have an emancipation grid on it, however the same doesn't hold true for P2 custom maps. I personally had a lot of trouble realizing that

Spoiler

I could bring the cube from the first room into the second via a portal. I thought I needed to go through the left emancipation grid (the higher one) to get another cube or something. I'm not sure if that's good puzzle design or not. On one hand, it made me think there were more possibilities in the first room and had me stumped for a while, but on the other hand, there's something kinda lame about having a useless grid up there. As far as I know, you can't go into it, and there's nothing in there essential to completing the level. It just seems like a cheap way to make the test more confusing, players tend to anticipate that all of the elements in the map will be used

I've heard of designers making more of the walls portal-friendly than necessary so that it's less obvious where to place portals (though when you have gel in a level this doesn't always work), but the grid seems a little much.

The third room all I can tell is it's a little tricky to see that the button on the left

Spoiler

pulls down the emancipation grid as well as reversing the funnel direction

, but I see you put glass there so I'm guessing you realized this and did the best you can. That's really nitpicking however, the real issues with this room are detailed below.

In the third/final room, it's not really clear whether it's the button (on the right) that's letting you into the door, or if the door just opens when you approach it. The doorway itself is probably small enough that even if there was no door and just an opening, you'd need to be standing at least where the button currently is, if not closer, so it wouldn't really change any elements about the actual puzzle if you just replaced the button door with an opening. Especially considering the fact that at the start of the puzzle, when you solve the first room and get to the room with two gels, the door doesn't open up to let you back in unless the button is pressed.

Finally, that

Spoiler

crouch-launching with the turrets

at the end was just bad design. Valve never mandates crouch jumping into their maps for good reason. Portal is a puzzle game with action elements. The action derives mostly from reflexes and setting up chain reactions with quick thinking. Not by hitting the ctrl key at the perfect time.

I'm not telling you how "portal is meant to be played", and I doubt I could do any better designing a map, but just look at it from the players view:

"I know what to do, I know how to do it, yet it's really hard." Knowing what to do but not being able to do it is really frustrating in a game like Portal.

Very frustrating. I personally noclipped after failing 10 times. I get that you want to prevent the player from launching themselves and taking out the turret

Spoiler

thus removing the excursion funnel puzzle

, but there has to be a better way than those shitty crouchjumps.

Make no mistake, your map is still an easy 5/5, maybe 6/5. I'm just saying if you took care of these issues and made the maps flawless, you have a good shot of being included in one of the (hopefully) inevitable FREE PS3/360 DLC packs that Valve is going to release so console gamers can play maps made by the community. Not that most modders/mappers care about the console generation, but it would be pretty cool to have a map in a map pack on consoles.

I'm looking forward to all your maps, the only ones that really come close so far are the lob_sphere_of_roundness and lob_old_faithful, and those are aesthetically completely different chambers. I personally think more people should learn from your designs. For example,

Spoiler

, in the second room where you're doing the speedpaint/bouncepaint combo through a Portal, even if you just didn't have the height, it was easy to just run back and try again. Remember consoles don't have quicksave, you should make all your maps with consoles in mind.

. However, had you removed the required crouchjump, that wouldn't have even been an issue.

Why am I bringing up all this console optimization Free DLC pack stuff? Because Valve hires from the modding community. Every modder and their dog should be cleaning up their maps for an official release from Valve... you never know where it'll take you.
:thumbup:

Really really good work. Make more, and if you ever need a playtester, I think I'm pretty good at giving... comprehensive feedback (looks at shrinking scrollbar)... VERY comprehensive feedback, as you can see :mrgreen: .

It's maps like this that make me wanna bust out hammer again...

TL;DR Play this map.

EDIT: I actually liked the trapdoor drop into the final area of the testchamber. There's no reason to separate that with an elevator. I would have had something like Stylus show up instead of the potato text, but that's just me being a whore. I would plaster my name all over this shit.

You could use that trapdoor technique to make a endlessly looping test. Might be funny to see how many times people solved it before realizing. It could be like the Badger video the first time you saw it (or Magical Trevor or Kenya...) "Is it looping?" :lol: :lol:

Steam: InertiaticESP629

Get in touch with me on Steam if you need a playtester. The more people you have test your map the better, and if you check some of my posts you'll see that my playtest write-ups are very comprehensive.

#37 · May 19, 2011, 5:09 pm

Very fun map, loved playing it.

#38 · May 20, 2011, 11:12 am

InertiaticESP i'll defenatly contact you when i need a tester for a next map. your feedback is very well written and you're not afraid to point out good and bad things about the map. I appreciate it.

I have to tell you guys that I haven't started on my next map yet. i thought about doing something thats going to require a lot of work and i had it all planed out but then decided to delay that project and maybe polish it before i start with it.

There are few reasons for this. First I don't have a lot of time during the week while I'm at college, since there's always something going on. Secondly, the college year is coming to an end so I'll have to spend some time studying although i'm not the most dedicated student i still wish to finish the year successfully.

But when i do have some time just for myself i'll try to get some ideas on paper. probably make some more maps like this one as far as length and difficulty goes

Anyway thanks for commenting

#39 · May 20, 2011, 12:14 pm

+1 to InertiaticESP's and Adair's well thought out criticism. We always appreciate people who are willing to give this sort of high quality responses to maps!

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#40 · May 21, 2011, 12:08 am

InertiaticESP wrote:

So far the only problem I've come across is I accidentally got blue paint on my cube, which bounced it off the button, sealing away the door that led to the only water in the level.

This same thing happened to me. That would have been the second time I got stuck (or at least thought I was) in that level, the first being when the turrets killed me, I restarted, and forgot to hit the "give me a cube" button before crossing over. Reading back in the thread I see that it's possible to get back to the start area, but I definitely didn't notice that. Making that more obvious would have fixed both problems.

The combination of those two things were annoying enough that I quit and went to another map. I'll go back to it, because I really did like it otherwise, but that was not the good kind of frustrating.

[SP] Stylus01