A note to newbie puzzle creators: Cutting corners.
Quote from shad0w440 on May 17, 2012, 8:19 pmefari wrote:shad0w440 wrote:Example:
Video Here
It was my first map :poh please, don't make me laugh
watch as i "solve" this :p
Another Video Here
i actually feel guilty about this
you put all that efford in such a big map, for me not to ever use it..this is what we need to prevent!
Good thing about workshop is you can always go in and tweak things
Video Here
It was my first map :p
oh please, don't make me laugh
watch as i "solve" this :p
Another Video Here
i actually feel guilty about this
you put all that efford in such a big map, for me not to ever use it..
this is what we need to prevent!
Good thing about workshop is you can always go in and tweak things
Quote from msleeper on May 17, 2012, 9:47 pmI think there's a huge difference between alternate solutions and unintended solutions. An alternate solution - that is, a puzzle with multiple ways of solving it while still preserving the integrity of the puzzle itself - really is fine. It's also pretty uncommon for this to be the case, but if a puzzle is designed in a way that there's no one right way to complete it then cool.
Unintended solutions, on the other hand, are definitely an issue of playtesting or designing the puzzle. I think the litmus test for this is asking yourself, "did I skip something". If you can skip a whole section of a puzzle, or the entire puzzle itself, to me that's an unintended solution and something that should be plugged.
A great example is chamber 14 in Portal 1. I consider this to be an unintended solution since you completely bypass the entire chamber. I apologize in advance for the abysmal quality of the video.
I think there's a huge difference between alternate solutions and unintended solutions. An alternate solution - that is, a puzzle with multiple ways of solving it while still preserving the integrity of the puzzle itself - really is fine. It's also pretty uncommon for this to be the case, but if a puzzle is designed in a way that there's no one right way to complete it then cool.
Unintended solutions, on the other hand, are definitely an issue of playtesting or designing the puzzle. I think the litmus test for this is asking yourself, "did I skip something". If you can skip a whole section of a puzzle, or the entire puzzle itself, to me that's an unintended solution and something that should be plugged.
A great example is chamber 14 in Portal 1. I consider this to be an unintended solution since you completely bypass the entire chamber. I apologize in advance for the abysmal quality of the video.
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Quote from ChickenMobile on May 17, 2012, 10:00 pmWell at least in portal they knew that you could do that and the challenge maps put it into account that you could do it in 8 steps/2portals/so many seconds.
Well at least in portal they knew that you could do that and the challenge maps put it into account that you could do it in 8 steps/2portals/so many seconds.
Quote from msleeper on May 17, 2012, 10:20 pmYeah but I'm sure that came about after the puzzle was designed. That's the most immediate example I could think of, I know there are others similar, especially in some custom maps.
Yeah but I'm sure that came about after the puzzle was designed. That's the most immediate example I could think of, I know there are others similar, especially in some custom maps.
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Quote from ChickenMobile on May 17, 2012, 10:25 pmThe thing is, that map could have easily been fixed if they didn't put a portable surface on the floor there.
People, learn from their mistakes!
The thing is, that map could have easily been fixed if they didn't put a portable surface on the floor there.
People, learn from their mistakes!
Quote from msleeper on May 17, 2012, 10:51 pmYeah that too. That exploit could be fixed in less time than it takes to read this sentence.
Yeah that too. That exploit could be fixed in less time than it takes to read this sentence.
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Quote from El Farmerino on May 18, 2012, 2:07 amlpfreaky90 wrote:While theoretically there?s nothing wrong with multiple solutions most of them completely skip a part of your level.
Also sometimes an alternative solution allows a much simpler solution instead of the clever trick you designed.These two cases are the things that I try to prevent as much as I can.
I'd add in a third, which is when there's an alternative solution that's either as or more obvious than the one you thought of but which is a chore to perform or relies on luck. I've had feedback in the past that 'the way to get x cube is just luck-based' or 'y fling is really tricky to pull off' when in actual fact it's just that people are doing it in a way I hadn't thought of. Now, to someone who knows my way that might seem like a reasonable alternative solution, but to someone who doesn't it's just a badly-designed map they're gonna rate down and never come back to.
Also sometimes an alternative solution allows a much simpler solution instead of the clever trick you designed.
These two cases are the things that I try to prevent as much as I can.
I'd add in a third, which is when there's an alternative solution that's either as or more obvious than the one you thought of but which is a chore to perform or relies on luck. I've had feedback in the past that 'the way to get x cube is just luck-based' or 'y fling is really tricky to pull off' when in actual fact it's just that people are doing it in a way I hadn't thought of. Now, to someone who knows my way that might seem like a reasonable alternative solution, but to someone who doesn't it's just a badly-designed map they're gonna rate down and never come back to.
My maps: Double Bill / Jam / Oval Window / Gymnasium / Gymnasium Part 2 / Minimalism (collection) / Resolution
All feedback welcome!
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Quote from IAMVOLDY on May 18, 2012, 6:34 amAlways ask soem1 you know to test your maps.
Cutting corners... what i should do before publishing my first map.
I was so used to solve it "correctly" that i didn't cosider that some1 would have solved it in other ways, which appaired right to some1 that didn't know the "proper" solution.
Luckly i had my map tested by a friend so i manged to solve the unintended solution the following day
Always ask soem1 you know to test your maps.
Cutting corners... what i should do before publishing my first map.
I was so used to solve it "correctly" that i didn't cosider that some1 would have solved it in other ways, which appaired right to some1 that didn't know the "proper" solution.
Luckly i had my map tested by a friend so i manged to solve the unintended solution the following day
Quote from HMW on May 18, 2012, 7:43 amEl Farmerino wrote:I'd add in a third, which is when there's an alternative solution that's either as or more obvious than the one you thought of but which is a chore to perform or relies on luck. I've had feedback in the past that 'the way to get x cube is just luck-based' or 'y fling is really tricky to pull off' when in actual fact it's just that people are doing it in a way I hadn't thought of.Yes, that's a very good point! I've had that happen with my maps on multiple occasions, especially with timed things. Some player thinks of a different approach where the allotted time is just barely enough to do it, and then complain that I'm requiring Nintendo skills
About luck-based alternatives: the final part of Manic Mechanic has a particularly nasty case of that. If you [spoiler]cross-wire the switches[/spoiler], it usually doesn't work, but there's a small chance (depending on the randomness of the physics) that it does, so for some players it looked like this was the way it was supposed to work. It was pretty frustrating that I couldn't find a way to prevent that without trivialising the whole puzzle.
(And yes, nowadays I ask a limited number of people to test it before releasing even a W.I.P. version.)
Yes, that's a very good point! I've had that happen with my maps on multiple occasions, especially with timed things. Some player thinks of a different approach where the allotted time is just barely enough to do it, and then complain that I'm requiring Nintendo skills
About luck-based alternatives: the final part of Manic Mechanic has a particularly nasty case of that. If you
(And yes, nowadays I ask a limited number of people to test it before releasing even a W.I.P. version.)
Other Portal 2 maps: Medusa Glare
Portal 1 maps: Try Anything Twice | Manic Mechanic
Quote from Aicxe on May 19, 2012, 3:34 amHeh. After doing my first map, which was horrendously horrendous (there were just 2 portalable surfaces... kinda takes the fun out of Portal), I always made sure that I don't solve the puzzle as I intended it to do.
I try to break it. Everytime that double door opens after pressing F9, I go like, "Hmm, so how can I exploit this thing?"
It sure as hell helps, that simple question.
Funny story. One of the puzzle elements I had was a laser emitter on the ceiling firing to a non-portalable floor below it, and a laser catcher at the wall adjacent to it. My intended solution was a reflector cube passing through two portals that end up at the catcher. I was dissapointed when I found out I could do it with just the portal.
P.S. Is there a post count before avatars and sigs are enabled?
P.P.S. I think high-energy pellets should be on the PTI as well.
P.P.P.S. I registered here cuz I saw the thread about PTI maps, is it stickied? It would be fantastic if it was.
Heh. After doing my first map, which was horrendously horrendous (there were just 2 portalable surfaces... kinda takes the fun out of Portal), I always made sure that I don't solve the puzzle as I intended it to do.
I try to break it. Everytime that double door opens after pressing F9, I go like, "Hmm, so how can I exploit this thing?"
It sure as hell helps, that simple question.
Funny story. One of the puzzle elements I had was a laser emitter on the ceiling firing to a non-portalable floor below it, and a laser catcher at the wall adjacent to it. My intended solution was a reflector cube passing through two portals that end up at the catcher. I was dissapointed when I found out I could do it with just the portal.
P.S. Is there a post count before avatars and sigs are enabled?
P.P.S. I think high-energy pellets should be on the PTI as well.
P.P.P.S. I registered here cuz I saw the thread about PTI maps, is it stickied? It would be fantastic if it was.