Quote from Thursaz on May 16, 2011, 10:58 pm

Not a lot of new mappers are able to do this, though. xD It's still rather impressive, at least to me!

Quote from Ruien on May 16, 2011, 11:12 pm

Neoxx wrote:

Well I finished it. From the initial time estimation I figured there'd be another room past the end, but I guess not!

Great work!

No, the time estimation was more of a complete process. Like, "take the map slowly and then get some great idea of how to do section X while driving to work or taking a shower". I know that's kind of a weird design goal.

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I'm guessing [spoiler]you're supposed to use a bouncy cube to get the last cube off of the pedistal?[/spoiler]

Yep! Check out the intended solution to compare with yours

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Its not really as bad as I said, but it still made me stop playing. Put more lights up and make acid water to show people the places you're not supposed to go. Getting stuck in a hole hopeless to get out is SOOOO much worse than just killing them.

Okay, That's good to know. I'll do that for all of the pits.

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Something that you might want to look into is making it so the player doesn't have to "resolve" puzzles to progress through the various stages. Once you have solved a part of the puzzle, the fun of doing it is gone, and it just becomes a chore if you need to repeat it over and over again.

Completely agreed. Actually I have been spending some serious time trying to figure out the "right way" to do this. There has to be a way to, for example, open another door once a puzzle has been solved in order to avoid having to resolve something. But I did try this at one point and found that having that extra panel then trivialized the excursion funnel part :-/

Thanks for the input though. I'll put some more brain power into it and see if I can figure out the right way to do it.

Thursaz wrote:

Not a lot of new mappers are able to do this, though. xD It's still rather impressive, at least to me!

Thanks!

Quote from Ruien on May 17, 2011, 12:41 am

sorebones wrote:

Actually, I've been thinking about the fizzler thing. I don't like that at all. Fizzlers should destroy cubes, period, unless there are official Portal levels in which they don't. I can't think of any, but my memory for stuff like that isn't really great so if there are then I take it back.

Well, no. The official portal mechanics would always fizzle the box. However, in this puzzle you never need to pull a box through a fizzler. I just disabled the box fizzle so that you wouldn't dead-end if the box accidentally touched it. For all intents and purposes, you can treat them as if they do fizzle boxes and it's the same solution.

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Instead of changing the function of the emancipation field, why not just put a grill over the top portal surface so the player can't go through it and get rid of the emancipation fields altogether?

This would break the solution in about 3 places.

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Or put a small emancipation field over the the portal area so if the player goes through it he hits it and loses his portals. The chances of the box bouncing into it are small enough.

This would break the intended solution and also pigeonhole the player into a single alternate solution, making the map far too frustrating.

Quote from Neoxx on May 17, 2011, 12:49 am

Shortening the re-solves
[spoiler]Its kinda hard to think of how you could achieve an easier re-entry into the main room/s. I think the biggest hurdle is the door that closes every time you want to get back to the main room with your new cube and the light bridge. You go up to the door (no cube, not needed really), portal through it, then go around and portal back into the starting room to retrieve the cube/bridge. Maybe have some sort of permanent door opener in the main room once you first solve it. Generally you have a cube in the main room to spare, so possibly put another button on the inside to keep the door open while you get your next cube. That will remove the final step of portaling back into the start room again as you can keep your original portal in tact.

I'm not sure if permanently keeping that first door open after you solve it (manually portal past it, button on the inside that unlocks it) is maybe not needing 1 of the cubes to finish the map. You need 3 cubes to fully operate the funnel in order to pull yourself out of the laser room, and the fourth to keep the door open. The fourth could be done away with, and to finish it you would have to go the extra step and retrieve the cube that is working the portalable wall instead of just taking the 4th cube through the funnel with you.

I hope I'm making enough sense to you

Btw, the part where you get the 3rd cube, and you're then forced to funnel yourself back to the beginning and drop down was a very nice touch. I just wish I hadn't fallen into that pit the first time I went in there and was like "Ooo, I wonder whats down that hall! *fall* WTF!"[/spoiler]

Quote from Neoxx on May 17, 2011, 12:52 am

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Instead of changing the function of the emancipation field, why not just put a grill over the top portal surface so the player can't go through it and get rid of the emancipation fields altogether?

This would break the solution in about 3 places.

This gave me an idea.... in the room with the emancipation grills and the cube on a platform, why not just replace those grilles with metal grates? I assume the idea behind them [spoiler]is to prevent the player from using the excursion funnel to go directly to the cube and grab it.[/spoiler] Using grates would have the same effect, but not be confusing as to if the cube will be killed or not.

It would also have a better aesthetic if that area was sectioned off completely with grates with an actual door leading into it. It would further reinforce that [spoiler]you cant use the funnel to get to the cube, but that you have to use the gel on it[/spoiler].

Quote from Ruien on May 17, 2011, 1:07 am

Re: Neoxx

Reply to Neoxx
[spoiler]

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Generally you have a cube in the main room to spare, so possibly put another button on the inside to keep the door open while you get your next cube. That will remove the final step of portaling back into the start room again as you can keep your original portal in tact.

That's a great idea. I'll playtest this when I get home from work.

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I'm not sure if permanently keeping that first door open after you solve it (manually portal past it, button on the inside that unlocks it) is maybe not needing 1 of the cubes to finish the map. You need 3 cubes to fully operate the funnel in order to pull yourself out of the laser room, and the fourth to keep the door open. The fourth could be done away with, and to finish it you would have to go the extra step and retrieve the cube that is working the portalable wall instead of just taking the 4th cube through the funnel with you.

Another fine idea. I'll playtest this too.

However, there are a couple of things I am worried about:
* I like the idea of the user getting so used to pulling the cube through that door twice in a row that the third time they need to leave the cube on the button outside. This introduces a fresh bit of logic that seems clear in retrospect but may not be at the time.
* I think the main part of backtracking is actually just to get the light bridge so many times. The main requirements here are (1) the person knows how to go back to room 1 through the window, and (2) brings a box with them in order to get back.

What if I solved this by:

(1) making a one-shot button in the hallway upstairs that opens a panel in the main room which has a disabled light bridge, then:

(2) The user can turn on the light bridge by placing a box on a button next to it.

This solves the light bridge backtracking by requiring that (1) the user made it up to the hallway, and (2) maintains the need to have an extra box to get a light bridge, exactly as it is now. But it should be much less repetitive.

If possible, ideally I could combine both of your ideas with this one to greatly reduce the necessary resolve time of the puzzle.

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Btw, the part where you get the 3rd cube, and you're then forced to funnel yourself back to the beginning and drop down was a very nice touch. I just wish I hadn't fallen into that pit the first time I went in there and was like "Ooo, I wonder whats down that hall! *fall* WTF!"

Yeah, I specifically added a light in that tunnel hoping to make that pit obvious but instead I obviously failed. I'll fix that. Sorry you had to be the beta tester! (at least, that's the point of the Work In Progress section though)[/spoiler]

Quote from Ruien on May 17, 2011, 1:18 am

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This gave me an idea.... in the room with the emancipation grills and the cube on a platform, why not just replace those grilles with metal grates? I assume the idea behind them [spoiler]is to prevent the player from using the excursion funnel to go directly to the cube and grab it.[/spoiler] Using grates would have the same effect, but not be confusing as to if the cube will be killed or not.

It would also have a better aesthetic if that area was sectioned off completely with grates with an actual door leading into it. It would further reinforce that [spoiler]you cant use the funnel to get to the cube, but that you have to use the gel on it[/spoiler].

Yes, these ideas would work. However, it represents a design paradigm that's a bit different, and I haven't decided which is better yet. I'd like your opinion:

opinion
[spoiler]On one hand, I have the blue gel fall onto the ground in front of the portal surface in that room. This gives the player the false idea that they should try jumping through, and to focus on that gel on the ground. I could point the player in the right direction by adding a grille on the floor so that the gel does not remain there. This would point the player to think of something else ("why would he put gel here if i can't even use it on the floor?"). However, doing what I did, I am rewarding outside-the-box thinking.

The emancipation fields are the same way. At first it looks like you might be able to fling yourself quickly through the fields, sacrifice the portals, and get the box. Putting a grating instead would immediately kill this idea and again point the player in the right direction.

I personally like the the idea of giving the player wrong first impressions so that they grow accustomed to thinking of all of the possible uses of an item as they progress through the map. Good example? Holding the blue box in the reverse excursion funnel while doing other things. No one thinks of doing that immediately upon encountering an excursion funnel.

Or, do you think this map would benefit more from closing off wrong solutions to help the player more quickly reach a more fruitful outcome?[/spoiler]

Quote from Thursaz on May 17, 2011, 1:23 am

No, closing off incorrect solutions and forcing the player to think in a more linear fashion would be too reminiscent of Portal 2. I liked those puzzles, but they don't have the element of creativity and logic required to solve your puzzles- The way you force a player to think beyond what is there and what is obvious, I think, is a very good thing. Of course, some might -want- things to be obvious, so an alternative map might be in order, but I honestly think it's best to leave solutions more open ended.

Quote from Ruien on May 17, 2011, 1:28 am

Right. My opinion is that there are plenty of maps that are more linear/direct and close off such solutions. Of course, I also realize that the player is not my enemy and I'm not trying to make it too trial-and-error based ("oh, look, a room with 1500 doors, 1500 buttons, and a crusher above every one.") is also no fun at all either.