Quote from srs bsnss on February 18, 2013, 2:49 am

Caden wrote:

npc_msleeper_boss wrote:

To the second point, that mappers are gonna map, again you're correct. But it shows zero understanding of a person's time on your part if you assume that because they will release map A for free, and someone wants to purchase map B from them, that they will offer map B at absolute minimum if not zero cost.

I seriously do not see why you would reject money, even if it is minimum wage, from someone who wants to implement your map into a game. If you accept, you get money. If you decline, you don't get money. What's the downfall of this?

The beautiful thing about working for yourself is that you get to do whatever YOU want. Nobody has to tell you to do something else. So when making map A, you're doing what you like doing, and that's satisfaction enough. But if someone tells you to make map B, you're not doing what you want. You're doing what someone else wants.

A good map of decent length can take at least 100 hours, usually more. Imagine investing 200 hours into making a map for someone else, and getting only a few dollars for your trouble. Wouldn't you feel cheated?

20 dollars for 200 hours is $0.10/hour. US minimum wage is $9.19/hour.

So you can see why you'd want a decent return for your efforts.

Quote from Caden on February 18, 2013, 10:51 pm

srs bsnss wrote:

The beautiful thing about working for yourself is that you get to do whatever YOU want. Nobody has to tell you to do something else. So when making map A, you're doing what you like doing, and that's satisfaction enough. But if someone tells you to make map B, you're not doing what you want. You're doing what someone else wants.

I'm not going to argue with you on this, those are perfectly reasonable pieces of logic. I would like to point out a couple, though. For instance: Working for someone doesn't necessarily mean that you don't get to do what you want, or that you can't have fun. I certainly wouldn't work for minimal wage for something I didn't want to do- and if I did I would just map in the Perpetual Testing Initiative.

srs bsnss wrote:

A good map of decent length can take at least 100 hours, usually more. Imagine investing 200 hours into making a map for someone else, and getting only a few dollars for your trouble. Wouldn't you feel cheated?

Great point. Of course I would feel cheated for spending time on a project I didn't want to do and getting hardly any money in return! But like I said earlier, if it was a project people would thoroughly enjoy, it would make sense to get paid lower quantities. But, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people *should* enjoy working for this guy. They could work or they could not work for him: As you've shown it's really about what he's asking for and what he's promising in return.

Quote from msleeper on February 19, 2013, 1:46 am

Caden wrote:

But like I said earlier, if it was a project people would thoroughly enjoy, it would make sense to get paid lower quantities.

Quote from wstrika on February 19, 2013, 1:54 am

Caden wrote:

But like I said earlier, if it was a project people would thoroughly enjoy, it would make sense to get paid lower quantities.

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Quote from BenVlodgi on February 19, 2013, 2:15 am

wstrika wrote:

Caden wrote:

But like I said earlier, if it was a project people would thoroughly enjoy, it would make sense to get paid lower quantities.

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Quote from Lpfreaky90 on February 19, 2013, 3:26 am

Caden wrote:

But like I said earlier, if it was a project people would thoroughly enjoy, it would make sense to get paid lower quantities.

So if you enjoy your work you should get payed less! That ain't how it works.

Generally, if people thoroughly enjoy working on a project they're very enthusiastic and want to bring the best, getting a very polished, high quality, end result. A project I worked on and reflects that is Aperture Valentine, we were as good as finished a week before we uploaded the map to the workshop, still in our enthusiasm we were getting out all the final tiny bugs. If you look at the comments and popularity of the map you see that that payed off. If you want to monetize your product that's important. Good comments and high popularity. For that you need high quality standards, for that you need an enthusiastic team. So I'd actually say the opposite: If people enjoy what they're doing it makes sense to pay them more.

As for designing levels for a mobile phone it requires a completely different approach in terms of level design. Where I love to go all out in portal 2 maps, push the engine to it's limits like in Aperture Valentine or Aperture Halloween this is simply not an option on a mobile phone.

Levels must be able to get finished in five minutes, with a lot more crappy controls, whilst still being challenging from a puzzle perspective. That requires careful planning of the puzzles, seeing how you can hint players into the right solution whilst not giving it away etc etc. So creating a puzzle for a mobile phone is completely different from making a map for hammer.

And again: most people design these maps because they like to design them. If people request things for a product they want to sell it's not more than logical that they offer money for it. Basically you also don't go to a painter: you like painting, paint me a nice picture with a nice woman on it, with a very detailed background and proper dimensions and I'd be happy to take it from you because you like painting and then selling it for a profit. No, you buy the painting for a certain price and then try to sell it to someone else. Or you can say well; I'm going to sell your painting and you can get 75% of it. Game design is the same thing.

Quote from srs bsnss on February 19, 2013, 5:00 am

Caden wrote:

srs bsnss wrote:

The beautiful thing about working for yourself is that you get to do whatever YOU want. Nobody has to tell you to do something else. So when making map A, you're doing what you like doing, and that's satisfaction enough. But if someone tells you to make map B, you're not doing what you want. You're doing what someone else wants.

I'm not going to argue with you on this, those are perfectly reasonable pieces of logic. I would like to point out a couple, though. For instance: Working for someone doesn't necessarily mean that you don't get to do what you want, or that you can't have fun. I certainly wouldn't work for minimal wage for something I didn't want to do- and if I did I would just map in the Perpetual Testing Initiative.

Yeah, that's true. I'm sure the Valve employees didn't make Portal 2 begrudgingly [Though then again, Valve don't really 'work for' anybody].

Caden wrote:

srs bsnss wrote:

A good map of decent length can take at least 100 hours, usually more. Imagine investing 200 hours into making a map for someone else, and getting only a few dollars for your trouble. Wouldn't you feel cheated?

Great point. Of course I would feel cheated for spending time on a project I didn't want to do and getting hardly any money in return! But like I said earlier, if it was a project people would thoroughly enjoy, it would make sense to get paid lower quantities. But, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people *should* enjoy working for this guy. They could work or they could not work for him: As you've shown it's really about what he's asking for and what he's promising in return.

I'm not going to say anything about the third line, because I'm sure you've heard enough from everybody else. And yes, what he's asking for and what he's offering need to be in a good balance. However, 20 dollars for a PTI map probably would be fair enough.

Quote from Caden on February 19, 2013, 5:35 pm

Lpfreaky90 wrote:

Caden wrote:

But like I said earlier, if it was a project people would thoroughly enjoy, it would make sense to get paid lower quantities.

So if you enjoy your work you should get payed less! That ain't how it works.

Kind of right idea, but obviously really wrong choice of words. I probably should have said something more along the lines of, "It wouldn't make sense to get paid almost nothing for voluntarily doing something you hate".

Quote from msleeper on February 19, 2013, 9:05 pm

EDIT
Actually I'm just going to lock this thread. It's completely off subject at this point. The creator has his message out there, and he's posted his email. If anyone actually wants to help him, they can reach him privately.