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are solvable puzzles necessary?

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I would like to note that I am capable of creating tests with an actual puzzle. When it came to this my map, I just got creator's block and stuck with the glitch idea. My good map with a puzzle is in my signature.

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I think you guys are getting lost in the verbiage here.

To me, a map that requires glitching, and a map that is difficult, and a map that is frustrating are all three totally separate, but not mutually exclusive, things. It's possible for a map to exhibit zero or more of these and still be a "bad map".

I like difficult maps; I like maps that make me sit and think about the solution. The best kind of difficulty maps are ones that make me feel like a genius when I've beaten them. The final map of Space Gardens is a great example of what I consider challenging. I dislike frustrating maps, typically because the reason these maps are frustrating is that they do a poor job of directing the player or a poor job of "explaining" the elements at play. In a lot of ways, what makes a map "fun difficult" and "frustrating difficult" all comes down to the timing of when I as a player am able to understand and execute the puzzle.

Maps that require glitching are an entirely separate beast altogether. I think a map that requires you to use engine glitches in order to complete it is a "bad map". While I recognize that there is an audience for these sort of things, you're still excluding the huge and vast majority of Portal 2 players by requiring your map to use these techniques in order to complete it.

I definitely think that maps that require engine glitching in order to compete should advertise themselves as such for two reasons. For one, the people who like doing that will be able to find it more easily. But two, more importantly, players like myself who have no idea what these engine glitches are or how to complete them will know to avoid your map, rather than spend X amount of time trying to complete it using standard portaling techniques and ultimately failing through no fault of our own. I have and will go fucking thermonuclear on someone's map if the reason I can't beat it is because I don't know how to glitch the engine, and the map didn't warn me of such ahead of time.

I don't think maps that require glitching techniques are difficult in the slightest bit (or at least, aren't difficult because they require glitching), and my frustration from them stems from requiring some sort of meta knowledge that I shouldn't need to have to complete your puzzle. Or rather, my frustration is at the mapper for being unable to create a normal map and feel like they need to introduce some sort of artificial difficulty into their puzzle.

If you want to be a good mapper, if you want people to play your maps, then stop worrying about engine glitches. I have no respect for mappers who think introducing artificial difficulty into their map makes it interesting or gives it replay value.

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I totally agree :thumbup: Very well said.

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npc_msleeper_boss wrote:
...I like difficult maps; I like maps that make me sit and think about the solution. The best kind of difficulty maps are ones that make me feel like a genius when I've beaten them. The final map of Space Gardens is a great example of what I consider challenging. I dislike frustrating maps, typically because the reason these maps are frustrating is that they do a poor job of directing the player or a poor job of "explaining" the elements at play. In a lot of ways, what makes a map "fun difficult" and "frustrating difficult" all comes down to the timing of when I as a player am able to understand and execute the puzzle...

Well then this and the previous replies give a fairly good estimate of the general co-census, which is what I wanted. Because I've seen instances where people don't like a difficult map even though it gives proper direction, nothing is hidden, etc., i.e. a "fair-play" difficult map in every way.
Maybe the frustration arises because one wasn't able to solve it :lol: I've been there myself...

A map can be difficult to the point of hate-fucking me and and I can still enjoy it. It's an art really, there's no formula for making a map both difficult and fun. It all comes down to execution, payoff, and lots of testing. The feeling like you've not just completed the puzzle, but conquered it. As long as I feel like I solved a puzzle rather than mashed rocks together and managed to beat it by luck, then odds are I'll have fun.

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I used to speedrun the maps before I started mapping. So I don't have a problem with all these glitches and things. But playing a map which requires you to do all these things can be boring and frustrating. I love clever puzzles, which give me these awesome "aha moments".

If you are looking for some challenge, I think speedruning an actual map is more entertaining than going through the chamber which requires you to bhop, do exfu glitch, wall reportal and other things, because you are breaking mapper's intended solution (that is actually useful, because you can provide feedback to mapper and tell him/her about the skip). As msleeper said before:

npc_msleeper_boss wrote:
Can you upload it? Sure. Will we remove it? No. Will we feel sorry for you when everyone tells you it's an awful map? Not a chance.

I am going to try out your map and see how it is.

npc_msleeper_boss wrote:
The best kind of difficulty maps are ones that make me feel like a genius when I've beaten them. The final map of Space Gardens is a great example of what I consider challenging.

portal2tenacious wrote:
I think laser puzzles with angles depend on how it's presented. The first test in space gardens used this in a very nice way, if I do say so myself.

Thanks :D

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